[Trisquel-devel] March 18th Developers Meeting Summary

[David Rodríguez Álvarez]

This is a summary of the development meeting held yesterday, Friday the
18th

The meeting had four main topics covered:

* the trisquel.info site migration to Drupal 7 (it's currently still
running Drupal 6)
* the current and future measures to fight spam there (after an
important surge about a month ago which prompted us to enable manual
authorization of new users)
* the possible new additions of non-free software in Trisquel 8's
upstream (Ubuntu Xenial), thinking about the updating of purge scripts
* the needed actions to alleviate the problem of the current Trisquel
mini installations not being able to be updated in a standard way

About the Drupal 7 migration, the clone site being used to test the
upgrade has been adjusted to fix problems with its relocation, modules
without a D7 candidate have been disabled and substitutes for their
functionality were looked into. The upgrade process is a bit more
complicated than expected since the site relies on components that have
changed a lot, so a successful migration has not yet been completed, I
(David) will keep working on it. Ideally we would get to a point where a
group of people can work on the upgraded but incomplete site, although
I'm not sure this sensible approach will work in this particular
situation.

Regarding the anti-spam measures, we discussed the possibility of
re-opening self-registration and enabling a human review process of the
first post sent by new users before its publishing; a particular module
(with both D6 and D7 support) is being tested. We also evaluated the
idea of substituting the current CAPTCHA method with a custom one based
on thematic questions, which would have to be easy enough for beginners,
translatable and accessible (i.e. how is this Gnu/Linux distribution
called?).

Leny2010 reported on his findings of new non-free packages introduced in
Ubuntu Xenial which could be unknown to our purge scripts; he thinks
there may not be a lot of new work needed there, but will complete his
search and open an issue report with the results.

He and Aklis also debated about the need for updated Trisquel 7 Mini iso
images, to avoid the current problem of not being able to update the
distro without using the command line, and as a result Aklis will
attempt to generate new images using the old makeiso scripts, Leny2010
will share the 'do-it-yourself' fix (basically dist-upgrading from the
command line) with the devel list and we will post an explanation of the
issue, the temporary fix and the upcoming plans at the main site and
relevant mailing lists for maximized visibility.

That was all for this meeting, barring any scheduling changes we'll hold
the next one next Friday the 25th of March at 17:00 UTC.

You can find the whole meeting log attached.
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(18:15:06) aklis: ok
(18:15:19) aklis: everyone ready?
(18:15:34) leny2010: ready
(18:15:40) aklis: ping a_slacker_here Basstard`  fpbot francis7 Jobbe
levlaz lukeshu pehjota son
(18:15:49) aklis: ping soonum thum vinzv 
(18:15:56) aklis: startmeeting
(18:16:08) leny2010: Agenda?
(18:16:12) aklis: so, for this our third meeting in-a-row, we have two
main topics
(18:16:20) aklis: Drupal, and debootstrap
(18:16:35) aklis: those are the notes from the last one:
(18:16:37) aklis:
https://listas.trisquel.info/pipermail/trisquel-devel/2016-March/000990.html
(18:16:45) aklis: quidam: are you here?
(18:17:11) aklis: ok, david, may you go on...
(18:17:20) aklis: what happened with the update?
(18:17:27) leny2010: AoB for makeiso and ubuntu-purge xenial also?
(18:17:32) aklis: I mean daroal ...
(18:17:39) daroal: I have made slow progress with the update process, as
some things make it fail if attempted directly
(18:18:09) daroal: mostly because of the (technically good) changes made
to the modules that are now part of core
(18:18:40) daroal: but it's viable, so I started looking for the
alternatives for the features we can't upgrade, and I have a lit of
those
(18:18:44) daroal: *list
(18:19:18) aklis: can you share it somewhere?
(18:19:35) aklis: I think that's the expected result...
(18:19:44) daroal: I also started looking for a solution to our current
(and future) spam problem which has our particular needs into account,
i.e. working for non automated spammers, being accessible and such
(18:19:56) daroal: yes, I can share it with you or quidam easily
(18:20:00) aklis: I mean...migrating to 7 will bring problems
(18:20:20) aklis: daroal: we should focus on the migration to drupal 7
(18:20:32) aklis: and after that, the spam problem might be solved
itself
(18:20:40) daroal: not really
(18:20:45) daroal: to the second thing, I mean
(18:21:01) daroal: I put my focus into the migration, but just upgrading
will not solve the spam problem
(18:21:20) aklis: ok , we should still add our own captcha module
(18:21:21) daroal: and we are currently putting a considerable hurdle to
the project with the closed registering
(18:21:31) aklis: with an accessible and unbreackable captcha, is that
what you mean?
(18:21:43) aklis: about the registration, I think the procedure for new
users is clear
(18:22:02) aklis: I will try to do some procmail magic and auto aprove
usres that send the confirm message
(18:22:16) daroal: we kind of have just two options, either a custom
method with some specific questions relevant to free software but easy
enough for any beginner
(18:22:30) aklis: having one korean spammer putting 20 thousands of
messages is a hurdle too :(
(18:22:31) daroal: or a method which includes our interaction with new
users' content
(18:22:39) aklis: daroal: 
(18:22:42) aklis: +1 to that
(18:22:49) aklis: askig users "how is the distribution called"
(18:22:58) aklis: would be a good and easy to implement captcha xD
(18:23:03) daroal: that second one (interacting with the users' content
but opening registrations) can work with a module I found
(18:23:22) aklis: ok, as said, we should focus in having a drupal7
environment
(18:23:25) daroal: that question popped into my mind, about method 1,
but you'd be surprised about how many people write Trisquel wrong
(18:23:26) aklis: where more than one people is able to work
(18:23:57) daroal: about the procedure for new users being clear
currently, that's my worry
(18:24:00) aklis: daroal: we can still check answers by hand, and if
someone wrotes trisquel in a creative way, add it to the allowed answers
(18:24:19) daroal: I have been enabling legit user accounts from people
who didn't send the ACTIVATE message
(18:24:48) daroal: aklis: +1, I think something like that may be our
best chance in the long run
(18:25:02) aklis: daroal: ok, that should be very easy to implement...
(18:25:17) daroal: because we can maintain all questions in all
languages easily, it would work with screen readers, and it wouldn't
depend on any external service
(18:25:21) leny2010: What ACTIVATE message?  I don't follow the forum or
t-u
leny2010 levlaz 
(18:25:38) aklis: leny2010: new users have to send a mail saying
"ACTIVATE ACCOUNT" 
(18:25:45) aklis: in order to confirm they are not bots
(18:25:47) leny2010: Thanks
(18:26:05) aklis: daroal: ok, so we have the captcha issues cleared
(18:26:19) daroal: in any case, besides the diversion, next week I'll
have an usable (to some extent) Drupal 7 site
(18:26:25) aklis: I think the captcha module is hackable in oder to save
the anwsers in the bbdd
(18:26:42) aklis: daroal: do you have also a "clean" bbdd
(18:26:51) aklis: so others can help too, without having access to real
users data?
(18:27:04) daroal: and we can decide how to divide needed work, if that
makes it easier or quicker
(18:27:28) aklis: we should divide the work somehow
(18:27:35) aklis: just to avoid having a bus factor of....1
(18:27:41) daroal: aklis: that's minor compared with the other pending
stuff, I mean, it's necessary if we go down that path, but it's easy to
do
(18:27:48) daroal: (the clean DB)
(18:27:51) aklis: ok
(18:28:07) leny2010: Divide work: Let contributors pick their own tasks
from a to do list.  Duplication is good. 
(18:28:19) aklis: first task: create a task list ;)
(18:28:20) aklis: xDD
(18:28:25) aklis: ok, now, about debootstrap
(18:28:34) aklis: without quidam here, I don't have anything to say :(
(18:29:12) daroal: I don't have any news from him today, sorry :)
(18:29:27) aklis: i pinged privately ...now
(18:29:35) daroal: I guess he's too busy fending off FBI agents trying
to register for Libreplanet :D
(18:29:44) aklis: xD
(18:29:50) leny2010: :-)
(18:29:54) aklis: daroal: that's the problem with bus factor 1 :/
(18:30:04) aklis: I hope he is not detained by the fbi for organizing
libreplanet
(18:30:33) daroal: nah, he will when he attempts to leave and go back to
the USA
(18:30:59) daroal: and that way we'll have him around again :P
(18:31:06) aklis: jokes aside, we have to avoid this kind of problems
(18:31:15) aklis: trisquel can't depend on one person :(
(18:31:36) daroal: yep, but that's one of the reasons of having these
meetings and objectives, right?
(18:31:53) aklis: but the person not appearing, doesn't help xDDDD
(18:32:02) aklis: ok, more questions?
(18:32:23) aklis: or else, we can finish this meeting
(18:32:30) a_slacker_here: Very lightweght meeting
(18:32:30) aklis: can someone send the notes to the mailing list?
(18:32:32) leny2010: So, in the tail of the meeting last week I agreed
with quidam I would look at makeiso for Trisquel Mini and during the
meeting volunteered for ubuntu-purge
(18:32:41) aklis: leny2010: yes
(18:32:48) aklis: any news about non-free software in xenial?
(18:33:00) aklis: feel free to send your findings as merge requests...
(18:33:06) a_slacker_here: I cannot summarize the meeting this time
(18:33:20) a_slacker_here: Sorry :(
(18:33:26) daroal: no problem, I will
(18:33:33) a_slacker_here: Ty
(18:33:47) leny2010: I went downt he rabiit hole with some bible stuff
which is exlauded for mysterious reasons.  The list as it stands looks
good apart from that
(18:34:15) leny2010: *rabbit, excluded, 
(18:34:37) aklis: something to share?
(18:35:21) leny2010: I need to dig further but will open a U Iss with my
findings - we can move with software excluded which might be added
later 
(18:35:51) aklis: ok, that will work
(18:36:12) aklis: but remember...release often, release early ;)
(18:36:21) leny2010: Also IMO a new T-M iso is not needed.  apt-get
dist-upgrade will do the job.
(18:36:24) aklis: this way everyone can jump in
(18:36:41) aklis: leny2010: dist-upgrade does the job
(18:36:56) aklis: but not having an install method that works, is not ok
for me
(18:37:08) aklis: people should be able to install an usable trisquel
mini
(18:37:19) aklis: without having to run commands in a shell
(18:37:33) leny2010: ubuntu ran with something like this back in 9.X
(18:37:47) aklis: we should do better...
(18:38:07) leny2010: Agreed, but no point in crying over spilt milk this
late in the day
(18:38:10) aklis: (and 9.x seems like ages ago...)
(18:38:34) aklis: yeah, I'm ok with using the old makeiso script
(18:38:47) aklis: but we have to spin a new release asap
(18:38:53) leny2010: If the user can bypass we should go for the next
release IMO
(18:39:01) aklis: *and* a new post telling users about hte problem, and
how to fix it
(18:39:15) leny2010: Agreed, will do
(18:39:24) aklis: leny2010: as t7 will still be supported for a long tim
(18:39:26) aklis: e
(18:39:52) aklis: I restate the need of the cd
(18:40:03) aklis: I have been what was I my hand, fixing the package
(18:40:15) leny2010: 3 more years, but the install iso will drop out of
easy public view with Flidas
(18:40:29) aklis: I prefer a fixed build, and an old post
(18:40:48) aklis: that the current build with a message saying "after
install, you have to run apt-get dist-upgrade!!"
(18:41:08) aklis: once the new iso is avaliable
(18:41:25) aklis: the post about fixing hte issue for installed systems,
will go down throught the list
(18:41:36) leny2010: The iso will be out of easy view with Flidas
(18:41:53) aklis: ok, got your point
(18:42:08) aklis: I will try to spin the iso build by myself
(18:42:17) aklis: and pray to do not break anything
(18:42:45) aklis: and once it's done, we can create the post telling the
users about how to fix it now, and how to avoid the problem in the
future (new iso)
(18:42:46) leny2010: I'll do it but I'm deeply unconvinced we need it. A
bypass is a resolution to a problem. 
(18:42:59) aklis: leny2010: no, I won't put security users at risk
(18:43:12) aklis: bypassing that is a big no-no
(18:43:25) aklis: we can't think in ourselves
(18:43:36) aklis: but in our users
(18:43:45) leny2010: Sorry - bypass is old mainframe speak for a user
being able to fix the problem with a command or two
(18:44:02) aklis: I'm ok with that for small issues
(18:44:13) aklis: but a system unable to update, is not "small"
(18:44:27) aklis: (automatically / using gui/ being a ...user)
(18:44:58) aklis: ok, seems like we are stalled here
(18:44:58) leny2010: C-M t -> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get
dist-upgrade    - come on ? 
(18:45:02) aklis: so, more topics?
(18:45:13) aklis: leny2010: sorry, *users*
(18:45:26) aklis: keep that in mind, this is a #trisquel-developers
meeting
(18:45:34) aklis: leny2010: and still,that will be a solution avaliable
(18:46:17) leny2010: So still iso for a few months?
(18:46:26) aklis: I was thinking on both
(18:46:33) aklis: we can publish the post
(18:46:45) aklis: and tell that we are working in the iso, and update it
when the iso is avaliable
(18:46:52) leny2010: I'll carry it forward to next week then.  
(18:46:55) aklis: people is at risk now
(18:47:07) leny2010: I'll post the fix after the meeting
(18:47:08) aklis: and we should put an end to that ASAP
(18:47:16) aklis: leny2010: wait, please share it with daroal or me
(18:47:22) aklis: so we can put it in the blog
(18:47:29) aklis: or as a fixed post without comments
(18:47:37) leny2010: C-M t -> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get
dist-upgrade
(18:47:48) aklis: this is an issue everyone should be aware of
(18:47:58) aklis: daroal: ideas?
(18:48:21) aklis: main site or sticked post?
(18:48:31) daroal: I'd say sticky post
(18:48:45) daroal: I don't think many people looks in the frontpage for
help
(18:48:53) aklis: daroal: this is not for help
(18:48:57) aklis: but for general knowledge
(18:49:07) aklis: *everyone* should do it, not only people aware of the
problem
(18:49:07) leny2010: Traditionally it was what Release Notes are for
(18:49:16) aklis: that's why i want to put it to the front page
(18:49:37) leny2010: Blog then. 
(18:49:46) daroal: aklis: I don't have anything against it, so, let's do
it
(18:50:06) aklis: I'm only sharing my thoughts, I don't have a clear
idea
(18:50:13) aklis: as both have a serious impact on the project
(18:50:36) aklis: leny2010: please, share the post in the mailing list
(18:50:42) aklis: so we can place it in the main site
(18:50:58) aklis: I will cross my fingers and run makeiso
(18:51:03) leny2010: dev mailing list?  
(18:51:06) aklis: over the weekend/next week
(18:51:08) aklis: yes, dev
(18:51:16) leny2010: Sure
(18:51:27) aklis: daroal: can you keep an eye on the list, and put the
post ina relevant way in the site?
(18:51:40) aklis: may be a top banne, or whatever
(18:51:57) daroal: maybe I don't understand the problem that well, and
that's why I thought the sticky post would be enough, and maybe we can
also put it at the wiki, or some other place in the docs
(18:52:07) aklis: daroal: user story is :
(18:52:15) aklis: - user installs trisquel mini
(18:52:23) aklis: - update-manager ui says that there are updates
pending
(18:52:30) aklis: - user clicks "Ok, install the updates"
(18:52:35) aklis: - update-manager dies
(18:52:54) aklis: The expected result, is that the update procedure
finishes, and your system is updated
(18:53:05) aklis: this problem is due to the lack of one package in
trisquel-mini
(18:53:08) aklis: policykit-1-gome
(18:53:22) daroal: if you find it that urgent, we should go with a
visible post at the frontpage, but, is this not a relatively old problem
anyway?
(18:53:24) aklis: are we on the same page until now?
(18:53:38) aklis: I don't understand the "old"
(18:53:43) aklis: is still big!
(18:53:54) aklis: trisquel mini can't be updated!
(18:53:58) aklis: since we deployed it!
(18:54:06) aklis: I think i'm the only one crazy about this
(18:54:16) aklis: I think is a very big issue, that should be addressed 
(18:54:17) daroal: absolutely, but it's not like it appeared today, in
any case, I don't think we're being productive here
(18:54:26) aklis: daroal: +1 to that
(18:54:27) leny2010: Trisquel Mini can be updated from the command line.
That has always fixed the problem. 
(18:54:33) aklis: leny2010: *USERS*
(18:54:42) aklis: you can fix everything from the command line
(18:54:46) daroal: let's just do that (the front page thing), it will
help
(18:54:47) aklis: I know that
(18:54:52) aklis: but is not expeected for users!!!
(18:55:19) aklis: and if you have a problem because of your environment,
hardware or whatever, I understand the need to use the command line
(18:55:24) aklis: but...after installing the system
(18:55:27) aklis: in order to get updates???
(18:55:44) aklis: I think you are not getting the problem
(18:55:47) daroal: I'll make a blog post about it, and I'll ask for
translations at the forum or the translators list
(18:55:52) aklis: think about the same issue with other OS
(18:56:10) aklis: in windows, that you need to open regedit in order to
install updats
(18:56:13) aklis: after a fresh install
(18:56:22) a_slacker_here ha salido de la sala (quit: Read error:
Connection reset by peer).
(18:56:22) aklis: or whatever OS you think about...
(18:56:23) aklis: xD
(18:56:33) aklis: aaaand, 4 minutes earlier of the one hour mark
(18:56:34) daroal: should I write that a new iso is in the way besides
posting the command line fix?
(18:56:34) a_slacker_here
[~yamir at 27.Red-81-37-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] ha entrado en la sala.
(18:56:45) aklis: I think we can say that this meeting is finished
(18:56:51) aklis: daroal: at your will
(18:57:02) aklis: I only want to float the issue
(18:57:15) daroal: no, I mean, will that new iso be available sometime
soon?
(18:57:20) aklis: it's giving me *real* nightmares since I was aware of
it
(18:57:27) aklis: daroal: I hope so
(18:57:30) daroal: ok
(18:57:36) aklis: but as said, will be my first try with the makeiso
script
(18:57:40) aklis: and they may bit
(18:59:12) aklis: but as said, will try to do my best
(18:59:28) aklis: I hope to have something working for next week, and
may be earlier
(18:59:55) daroal: that'll be great
(19:00:00) aklis: endmeeting